Can we use two amplifiers? What considerations specific to X1 for aftermarket amplifier/splitter?

[AveryFreeman3]

Hello,

We have two buildings on the same property and the first building is the closest to the cable source.  It has a typical passive splitter that splits incoming to the first building (shop) and sends to the house.

The run length is about 200ft and requires an amplifier.  Comcast installed typical Commscope CSAPDU9VP for X1.  However, this  amplifier/splitter has built-in POE filter for MoCA and we want to share MoCA between buildings for connected devices (WIFI, security cameras, etc.).

I'm wondering if I could move the Commscope CSAPDU9VP to the shop because it's a better place to put the POE filter, and use another aftermarket amplifier/splitter like 'PCT-VC-9U - Bypass Amplifier with Modem Port, 9-Port (1 + 😎 Unity Gain' for the house? PCT-VC-9U-Specs-Link

What signal strength and frequencies are important for the X1 specifically, and is there any issue with using two amplifiers?

Thanks!

[CCAndrew]

The moca that the X1 boxes use to communicate with each other wont pass through the second amp. Do you have x1 equipment in the shop?

[AveryFreeman3]

Why wouldn't MoCA pass from the output of the Commscope to the next amplifier? The POE filter is only on the Commscope's input which would be the drop.

I would make absolutely sure to get a unity gain amplifier for the house that does not have a POE filter on the input, which AFAIK is the only real thing stopping the two buildings from sharing MoCA right now.

Or, I could get a +4 amp for the shop and a unity gain amp without poe filter for the house, since the shop has no x1 and the run from shop to house is approx 200ft

Thoughts?

[CCAndrew]

It’s not that the moca isn’t passing to the next amp but it’s that moca isn’t going to pass back out of the second amp to the X1 equipment. Any X1 equipment has to be off the original amp not the second one you describe

[AveryFreeman3]

Are you saying if we use another type of amplifier on the house, even if it's unity gain and similar spec as the CommScope, the X1 will not work?  If so, what is the reason for this?

I'm not so concerned with the X1 equipment, as long as it still works in the house.

We just want MoCA to communicate between the two buildings

I have bought some equipment to try it.  Through other resources I've read, some models CommScope splitters have MoCA filter on the input, others do not.  

One person even described the same situation I'm having and plugged the input line on one of the other channels (free output channel) and said the MoCA started working, albeit at lower speeds than expected (620Mbps instead of ~900Mbps). 

If you see any issues with this, feel free to chime in.

[CCAndrew]

Again, the X1 boxes need to communicate with each other(using moca) . If you use the Commscope that you originally posted about, ALL X1 boxes NEED to be off the same Commscope amp. If not, the X1 boxes CANNOT talk to each other. The moca CANNOT go through a second amp. You can try all the different additional amps that you’d like and you will find the X1 boxes will not work. This is from experience in the field. So it’s clear, if you have 5 boxes all 5 have to come off the Commscope(not including the VoIP port). You can use anything else after the Commscope if it doesn’t involve X1 but if you did what would be the point as there is no reason to have a second amp if there’s no services using it.

[lesmikesell]

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@AveryFreeman3 wrote:

One person even described the same situation I'm having and plugged the input line on one of the other channels (free output channel) and said the MoCA started working, albeit at lower speeds than expected (620Mbps instead of ~900Mbps). 

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If you try that, you'll need a MoCA filter on the feed side of your first splitter.

Alternatively, if the buildings share a power feed you might try an ethernet-over-powerline extender to take the network there.   Some of them also provide wifi at the remote side.

[AveryFreeman3]

Oh, that's fascinating, I had no idea X1 boxes use MoCA themselves.  Do you have a spec / reference sheet or any other resources about how/why they do this?  

Sorry I didn't quite catch what you were saying the first time, but it's clear now.  Thank you

[AveryFreeman3]

Nope don't share power, but share cable.  Besides MoCA's way faster and far less noisy than powerline (we have one there, it's meh).  

I know I need a POE filter at the point of entry.  I just hate it when devices have them built in because it makes scenarios like mine so much more complicated. 

Thanks for your help

[Rustyben]

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@AveryFreeman3 wrote:

Oh, that's fascinating, I had no idea X1 boxes use MoCA themselves.  Do you have a spec / reference sheet or any other resources about how/why they do this?  

Sorry I didn't quite catch what you were saying the first time, but it's clear now.  Thank you

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http://www.mocainyourhouse.com/moca-technical-information

[AveryFreeman3]

BTW POE filter goes at point of entry, so *before* the first splitter

That's why it's called a point of entry filter.

[AveryFreeman3]

This doesn't have any information on how X1 purportedly uses MoCA, I've read it several times

Is there any reference to verify that X1 uses MoCA?  I've never heard that until now.

[RobertWy]

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@AveryFreeman3 wrote:

This doesn't have any information on how X1 purportedly uses MoCA, I've read it several times

Is there any reference to verify that X1 uses MoCA?  I've never heard that until now.

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https://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Your-Home-Network/X1-XB3-and-MoCA-Networking/td-p/2958745

[CCAndrew · Accepted solution]

Here ya go
https://wiki.rdkcentral.com/plugins/servlet/mobile?contentId=34046142#content/view/34046142

[AveryFreeman3]

I appreciate this wiki write-up very much, it's not exactly an answer to the OP but it's as close as anyone has gotten and these are exactly the kind of specs I was looking for.  

Do you have any other documents along these same lines? (e.g. specs for indivdual X1 boxes themselves, like the XG2 or XiD ?)  I'm trying to navigate the RDK wiki and not turning up much off-hand (will keep digging)

Also, why does comcast isolate the MoCA to a single building?  Couldn't there be scenarios where someone might want MoCA connectivity in other buildings on their property?  Is there a business reason for this, or is it purely a technical consideration?

Thank you very much

[CCAndrew]

I appreciate this wiki write-up very much, it's not exactly an answer to the OP but it's as close as anyone has gotten and these are exactly the kind of specs I was looking for.
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If you want to go back to the OP, it was answered right off the bat. You can’t use 2 amplifiers.

[CCAndrew]

Do you have any other documents along these same lines? (e.g. specs for indivdual X1 boxes themselves, like the XG2 or XiD ?) I'm trying to navigate the RDK wiki and not turning up much off-hand (will keep digging)

Also, why does comcast isolate the MoCA to a single building? Couldn't there be scenarios where someone might want MoCA connectivity in other buildings on their property? Is there a business reason for this, or is it purely a technical consideration?
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Not to be rude but Google is your friend to find further information , that’s how I found the Wiki. There are distance limits on a Moca network and really the whole point from an X1 point of view is to keep your services in your house and your neighbor’s services out. One off situations like what you want are uncommon and not what the X1 platform use is designed for.

[AveryFreeman3]

Trust me, I googled, too, but the documentation on X1 equipment is sparse to nil.  Even what you found is from a developer resource, basically everything from CommScope is for installers.  Nothing I've seen for end users, it's just not like other equipment.