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1080i channels are being changed to 720p60 channels

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Frequent Visitor

1080i channels are being changed to 720p60 channels

Can you tell us why native 1080i channels are being changed to lower resolution 720p channels?  Looks to me like Comcast is getting even more greedy in doing this, by being able to cram an extra 720p channel (or more) for a total of 9, into the same QAM space that fits 8 1080i channels!

Official Employee

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento


HarperVision wrote:

Can you tell us why native 1080i channels are being changed to lower resolution 720p channels?  Looks to me like Comcast is getting even more greedy in doing this, by being able to cram an extra 720p channel (or more) for a total of 9, into the same QAM space that fits 8 1080i channels!


Apologies, can you provide some examples of what channels you are seeing this described behavior? And on what device(s)? That way I can have our teams review. Thanks for any additional information that you are able to provide. You can post that here in the thread or send me a PM (Private Message).   

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Frequent Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

These channels are all displayed at 720p on my TiVo Roamio Plus.  All of them, I believe should be at 1080i.

 

680 UNVSPHD
731 FS1HD
763 DXDHDP
764 BLOOMHD
783 MTVLIVE
797 MGMHD
805 VICEPHD
806 NGWHD
808 HBOLPHD
810 BBCAPH
813 DFCHD
814 UPHD
815 GALAHD
820 OWNHD
822 GSNPHD
823 P12BAHD
825 SHOWHD
838 MAXHDP

 

Again, this probably isn't comprehensive - it's just a list based on those channels I can view but not record.

Official Employee

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento


rgrounds wrote:

These channels are all displayed at 720p on my TiVo Roamio Plus.  All of them, I believe should be at 1080i.

 

680 UNVSPHD
731 FS1HD
763 DXDHDP
764 BLOOMHD
783 MTVLIVE
797 MGMHD
805 VICEPHD
806 NGWHD
808 HBOLPHD
810 BBCAPH
813 DFCHD
814 UPHD
815 GALAHD
820 OWNHD
822 GSNPHD
823 P12BAHD
825 SHOWHD
838 MAXHDP

 

Again, this probably isn't comprehensive - it's just a list based on those channels I can view but not record.


Thanks for providing the examples above. I've engaged the right teams to review. Thanks for your patience. 

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Frequent Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento


ComcastTeds wrote:

HarperVision wrote:

Can you tell us why native 1080i channels are being changed to lower resolution 720p channels?  Looks to me like Comcast is getting even more greedy in doing this, by being able to cram an extra 720p channel (or more) for a total of 9, into the same QAM space that fits 8 1080i channels!


Apologies, can you provide some examples of what channels you are seeing this described behavior? And on what device(s)? That way I can have our teams review. Thanks for any additional information that you are able to provide. You can post that here in the thread or send me a PM (Private Message).   


 

 

I don't have Comcast here at this home in HI, but I do at my home where my daughter is attending college in PA, although she has a very limited TV package without most if not all of those channels.  I also manage my parent's Comcast account in PA as well.  I am just helping people on a thread over at TiVo Community Forums and noticed a trend and then did some math based on my knowledge and background in Video, Radio and TV broadcasting.  Here is what I discovered:

 

From here

I just did some math and guess what, as soon as you get to 8 720p channels compared to 1080i, you can fit an additional 1280x720p60 channel in there! [Deleted to be nice on a Comcast Forum Smiley Happy ]

1280x720x60 = 55,296,000 pixels/second
1920x1080x30 = 62,208,000 pixels/second

62,208,000 - 55,296,000 = 6,912,000

6,912,000 x 8 = ....... You guessed it....

.......55,296,000, the same as 1280x720p60!

Conclusion:
They are down converting 1080i channels to 720p so that for every 8 1080i channels they can put on their system [Add: to each QAM channel], they can put in 9 720p channels.

 

and here:

.....As stated by I believe Dan203, when they use h.264 compression they can get about 8-9 HD channels into one QAM (6MHz space with about 38Mbps payload capacity). If these 8 or so HD channels are 1080i, then converting them to 720p first will allow one extra 720p HD channel per QAM (6MHz). Therefore an 850MHz cable plant could (theoretically for this calculation, not including whatever they decide to use for Internet, etc.) could use about 140 QAM channels, each having 9 720p HD channels/QAM for a total of 1260 HD channels, as opposed to only 8 1080i HD channels/QAM for a total of 1120 HD channels. That's a difference of 140 HD channels, not only one per 90 as you're trying to say.

Of course in real life there's a mix of 480, 720, 1080, plus internet, OOB, etc. on that 850MHz pipe, but you can see how they could theoretically put dozens more channels (or even using that extra space for more internet bandwidth) on the system by converting 1080i channels to 720p and then compressing using h.264

 

I don't have a list of channels, but thanks rgrounds!

Frequent Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

820 OWNHD should be removed from my list - as it comes up "not available" when selected. Oddly enough 220 OWNPA in SD does show and is available. So I don't know what resolution it would be at if I did get it.  Apologies for the cut & paste error.

Frequent Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

So, any verdicts?

Frequent Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

Still having the problem and waiting on a solution.

New Poster

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

Experiencing the same in Beaverton, OR market:

 

TiVo Roamio Plus with two Minis connected.


709 - WGNAPHD - 720p (H.264)
715 - VICEPHD - 720p (H.264)
720 - Pac12 Network - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
743 - BLOOMHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
774 - NGWIHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
793 - BBCA - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
796 - DXDHDP - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
797 - UPHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
798 - AXSTV - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
799 - NFLRDZ - (shows as 720p, but not currently subscribed)
801 - GALAPHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
804 - OWNHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
806 - SPMNHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
807 - GSNPHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
808 - POPNSHP - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
809 - SMTHHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)


Recently discovered that a recording of Ripper Street was missed/not recorded (empty recording) of S4 E1 on BBCA 793. This is what tipped me off to something being messed up. I reached out to Comcast over chat and had the cablecard re-provisioned, yet to no avail. VERY frustrating to be sure not to be able to record any of these channels on the TiVo, let alone watch on a Mini from another room (Mini freezes up and have to unplug the power to get it to reset). Any insight is appreciated. (Comcast, Beaverton, OR market, CableCard, TiVo Roamio Plus and two Minis)

New Poster

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

Anyone else w/ a TiVo (Roamio) and a Mini or two running into issues w/ the following channels (not buffering, no ability to rewind...720p H.264)? 

709 - WGNAPHD - 720p (H.264)
715 - VICEPHD - 720p (H.264)
720 - Pac12 Network - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
743 - BLOOMHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
774 - NGWIHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
793 - BBCA - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
796 - DXDHDP - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
797 - UPHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
798 - AXSTV - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind)
799 - NFLRDZ - (shows as 720p, but not currently subscribed)
801 - GALAPHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
804 - OWNHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
806 - SPMNHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
807 - GSNPHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
808 - POPNSHP - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)
809 - SMTHHD - 720p (no buffer, unable to rewind, H.264)


Recently discovered that a recording of Ripper Street was missed/not recorded (empty recording) of S4 E1 on BBCA 793. This is what tipped me off to something being messed up. I reached out to Comcast over chat, and had the cablecard re-provisioned, yet to no avail. VERY frustrating to be sure not to be able to record any of these channels on the TiVo, let alone watch on a Mini from another room (Mini freezes up and have to unplug the power to get it to reset). Any insight is appreciated. (Comcast, Beaverton, OR market, CableCard, TiVo Roamio Plus and two Minis)

Regular Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

I've been noticing for about the past month certain 1080i channels are now being output as 720p in the Atlanta market as well. I don't have a DVR and use a Comcast issued MOTOROLA MORN150NR (RNG150N) box set to native signal output. (1080i or 720p)

 

Channels that were formerly 1080i but have are now outputting as 720p to my TV:

 

711 - SZEHD (the other Starz channels are still 1080i)

756 - BBCAM

827 - UPHD

850 - MTVL

870 - UHD

892 - VICEH

 

Frequent Visitor

Re: Can view but not record some h.264 channels - TiVo/Cablecard/Sacramento

Go to this Link to find out more on the TiVo Community forum:

 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=541407

 

This is what I posted initially here, asking why Comcast is down converting 1080i to 720p and cheating their unkowing, hard working and paying customers!

 

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10943669#post10943669 

Official Employee

1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels

Apologies for the delay in responding. I was out of the office last week on vaction and just returned today.

 

In regards to 720p delivery, some of your HD channels have transitioned from 1080i to 720p60. As part of our ongoing work to improve and modernize the way we deliver HD channels, we are transitioning all of our HD streams to “progressive” format. We are making this change in conjunction with the transition to MPEG-4. This means that some channels that were delivered in 1080i will now be delivered in 720p60.

 

The progressive format offers a number of advantages, and is an important component of the transition to IP video delivery.

 

In addition, the transition to progressive format allows us to offer a uniform HD experience across all devices, apps and screens, ensuring a consistently excellent experience.

 

The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. 

 

Based on extensive testing and research, we’re confident the combination of MPEG-4 encoding and the progressive format will allow us to deliver superior video performance to our customers.

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Frequent Visitor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels


ComcastTeds wrote:

Apologies for the delay in responding. I was out of the office last week on vaction and just returned today.

 

In regards to 720p delivery, some of your HD channels have transitioned from 1080i to 720p60. As part of our ongoing work to improve and modernize the way we deliver HD channels, we are transitioning all of our HD streams to “progressive” format. We are making this change in conjunction with the transition to MPEG-4. This means that some channels that were delivered in 1080i will now be delivered in 720p60.

 

The progressive format offers a number of advantages, and is an important component of the transition to IP video delivery.

 

In addition, the transition to progressive format allows us to offer a uniform HD experience across all devices, apps and screens, ensuring a consistently excellent experience.

 

The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. 

 

Based on extensive testing and research, we’re confident the combination of MPEG-4 encoding and the progressive format will allow us to deliver superior video performance to our customers.


 Seriously???  You and I both know that's total marketing speak and not true!  I certainly hope the channel owners that you're destroying the channel resolutions of know about this!  I have two immediate family members that have Comcast and I am telling you NOW that I am going to be helping them change over to FiOS in one instance and DirecTV in the other (FiOS not available there).  This is the last time I or anyone I can influence will be a Comcast customer if this so called "upgrade" isn't reversed!  I hope and pray others follow my lead and someone in the press gets hold of this and releases it so your unwitting "customers" know what is REALLY happening and what Comcast REALLY cares about....money!  So much for integrity.

 

(I'm sure you'll delete this thread or at least my posts to cover up everything, right?  If so, I hope you sleep well at night.)

Contributor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels


ComcastTeds wrote:

Apologies for the delay in responding. I was out of the office last week on vaction and just returned today.

 

In regards to 720p delivery, some of your HD channels have transitioned from 1080i to 720p60. As part of our ongoing work to improve and modernize the way we deliver HD channels, we are transitioning all of our HD streams to “progressive” format. We are making this change in conjunction with the transition to MPEG-4. This means that some channels that were delivered in 1080i will now be delivered in 720p60.

 

The progressive format offers a number of advantages, and is an important component of the transition to IP video delivery.

 

In addition, the transition to progressive format allows us to offer a uniform HD experience across all devices, apps and screens, ensuring a consistently excellent experience.

 

The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. 

 

Based on extensive testing and research, we’re confident the combination of MPEG-4 encoding and the progressive format will allow us to deliver superior video performance to our customers.


 

So in other words, it's more about Comcast saving money than it is about quality. I don't care how you spin it, down-rezzing a 1080i signal to 720p will end up with a reduction in the image quality.

 

 

And if this is the reason,

 

"The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. "

 

then send the 1080i signals out as 1080p, there, your motion problem is fixed. But wait, 1080i/1080p requires more bandwidth so now we're back to the real reason and it has nothing to do with quality, it's about Comcast saving money.

 

With all due respect, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Are you saying that that is the company line on this issue? That all 1080i channels will be quality-reduced to 720p? If so, that's shocking, especially when other providers are moving to 4K and here's Comcast turning the clock back to 2004, unbelievable. 

 

Again, with all due respect, I would like to see an official statement from Comcast because what you're saying is not even technically correct.

 

(And yes, most providers are moving to a progressive video format, but it isn't 720p.)


Regular Visitor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels

So does Comcast plan to transcode from 1080i to 720p [using AVC (High@L3.2) instead of AVC (High@L4)] on all your Comcast owned channels such as Comcast Sports regional network channels, NBC TV network stations , NBC Sports Network, CNBC, MSNBC, Bravo, Sprout, USA, Golf Channel, Syfy, and others under the NBC Universal corporate umbrella?  I know you've already done this on UNVSPHD (Spanish language) and Sprout (kids programming) in some areas of the country.

Frequent Visitor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels


ComcastTeds wrote:

Apologies for the delay in responding. I was out of the office last week on vaction and just returned today.

 

In regards to 720p delivery, some of your HD channels have transitioned from 1080i to 720p60. As part of our ongoing work to improve and modernize the way we deliver HD channels, we are transitioning all of our HD streams to “progressive” format. We are making this change in conjunction with the transition to MPEG-4. This means that some channels that were delivered in 1080i will now be delivered in 720p60.

 

The progressive format offers a number of advantages, and is an important component of the transition to IP video delivery.

 

In addition, the transition to progressive format allows us to offer a uniform HD experience across all devices, apps and screens, ensuring a consistently excellent experience.

 

The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. 

 

Based on extensive testing and research, we’re confident the combination of MPEG-4 encoding and the progressive format will allow us to deliver superior video performance to our customers.


Wow, really?   All the "advantages" and "benefits" here are for Comcast versus the consumer.  This will not improve the quality of video on our existing TV's and only continues Comcast's trend in reducing that quality.

 

Scott

Regular Contributor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels


ComcastTeds wrote:

The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. 

 

Based on extensive testing and research, we’re confident the combination of MPEG-4 encoding and the progressive format will allow us to deliver superior video performance to our customers.


This is mostly marketing falsehood. If Comcast wants to "deliver superior video performance", send us 2160p. My 4K projector will thank you. But we will settle for 1080p. 720 is just losing bits to reduce bandwidth, a big disappointment.

Frequent Visitor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels


ComcastTeds wrote:

Apologies for the delay in responding. I was out of the office last week on vaction and just returned today.

 

In regards to 720p delivery, some of your HD channels have transitioned from 1080i to 720p60. As part of our ongoing work to improve and modernize the way we deliver HD channels, we are transitioning all of our HD streams to “progressive” format. We are making this change in conjunction with the transition to MPEG-4. This means that some channels that were delivered in 1080i will now be delivered in 720p60.

 

The progressive format offers a number of advantages, and is an important component of the transition to IP video delivery.

 

In addition, the transition to progressive format allows us to offer a uniform HD experience across all devices, apps and screens, ensuring a consistently excellent experience.

 

The interlaced format reduces the effective resolution of 1080i significantly. Most video delivery is moving toward progressive formats. Many leading HD channels already deliver video in 720p60, and the progressive format renders motion more effectively. 

 

Based on extensive testing and research, we’re confident the combination of MPEG-4 encoding and the progressive format will allow us to deliver superior video performance to our customers.


You've got to be joking, right?  While 'progressive' is superior for a given resolution over 'interlaced' is true.  1080i is taken by our equipment for those with 1080p or 4K TVs and first deinterlaced to 1080p (4K will continue and upscale to 4K) it doesn't then down convert the resolution to a 720p, which is what Comcast is doing here, which then needs to be upconverted to 1080p putting in what it interprets as the filler pixels which will never produce the same content unless it happened to all be one constant color.  

 

No, Comcast is force feeding this which is not asked for, not desired, and worse quality for source content.  And the only logical reason is to be able to squeeze in 9 MPEG4(H.264) channels instead of 8 in the same 6MHz frequency band.  Be happy that you're going from 3 Channels of HD content to 8 Channels when migrating from MPEG2 to MPEG4(H.264) for a 6MHz frequency band, everyone is happy with is.  Getting extra greedy and loosing image resolution by shoving this down our throats is not going to make your knowledgable customer base happy.  And likely will eventually blow up in Comcasts face.  Down converting and upconverting back up doesn't translate the same quality image period.  There's information loss which results in quality loss. 

 
Regular Visitor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels

I find it odd that just about the time that Comcast started downconverting resolution on all non-local cable content to 720p, thus requiring customers to access 1080i content through ip streaming if they want watch content as intended (and delivered by content providers), Comcast began to enforce their much despised bandwidth caps.  One could almost connect the dots and conclude that this was not a coincidence...

Frequent Visitor

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels

AS of April 2017, I noticed my channel lineup on Tivo is not showing at 720p in Concord, CA, all the while I would see a variety of 720p and 1080i. Something else I noticed was a published listing of additional TV channels, with channel names, but no additional guide data, including resolution, in the 1000 block of channels.

 

 

Hoping to return to the 1080i breadth of channels, or would love to see the advent of 1080 or better. 

 

I have found streaming apps such as Vudu, Youtube, and Neflix are putting out visually improved video playback. I would think Comcast would put their best foot forward.

New Poster

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels

1080p is progressive scan! With no resolution loss over 1080i! I love the post ignores that 1080p exists completely. Of course!

Obviously bean counters not engineers are running the show at Comcast. SMH

Expert

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels


Sheeple wrote:
1080p is progressive scan! With no resolution loss over 1080i! I love the post ignores that 1080p exists completely. Of course!

Obviously bean counters not engineers are running the show at Comcast. SMH


By the time the television's circuity handles conversion the 1080i signal has never been as good as Blu-ray (1080p). Have you ever seen the difference between a Blu-ray movie and one watched in either 720p or 1080i?

 

Of course the 1080i picture was better than 720p, but the Comcast conversion from MPEG 2 to MPEG 4 has been taking place for over a year and a half  by now. The conversion is old news and covered many times on the forum all ready.

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Official Employee

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p channels

Year plus old thread closed
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New Poster

Re: 1080i channels are being changed to 720p60 channels

"allows us to offer a uniform HD experience across all devices, apps and screens, ensuring a consistently excellent experience."  That statement pretty much explains your Attitude. I pay (alot) for HD and you should deliver as advertised. While I am at it the number of commercials per show is absurd, I think the viewers should band together and do something about it.